Meeting at 4 Corners

Discussion with Thomas Banyacya
(April 1998)

Old People Say - "When things happen like that you must get all 4 directions to come back together - to keep nature in balance."

Janet McCloud - The meeting that the Peru Indians wanted to have?

Thomas B. - The meeting was in Toronto, Canada, after we talked to the United Nations in 1992. The South American peoples, Peru People especially and others, knew about this ancient knowledge, that someday the Canadian, United States and United Nations, that we the original Native People in the country would come together as a Nation. We're already nations, that we just come together to form our own United Nations of Original Native Peoples in this country.

Those people from Peru said once that's done, we don't have anything to do with the Canadian, US or United Nations because those are foreign governments that came upon our country and just about take everything away from us by force or violence or legal tricks.

That we be the deciding factor, we decide what to do

This is our homeland and the Great Spirit divided this land into Sacred Areas and let leaders into those areas to take care of it. That's why we spread out in the 4 directions.

So that's what's going to happen, that we be the deciding factor; that we decide what to do, not the Canadian, US or UN. Then we have to go through steps of initiations to purify ourselves, like any ceremony, we have to go through certain stages to get into it, the Spiritual Center. Like the Lakotas, they have 4 days of sweat lodge, then they go so many days fasting then they dance.

Original Native Peoples, Nations Coming Together With Our System Based On Our Spiritual Way, Spiritual Patterns

That's how we need to go through this. We need to go along as much with nature. Nature's here already moving along in that fashion. We don't order the sun to move in a certain way. It moves by itself in a certain fashion. We must keep that nature in balance that way.

So that's why old people in Toronto, Canada, 1992 mentioned that there'll be a time when we get together as Original Native People. But the trouble is we don't know who to do it. I didn't say anything to them until the morning. After dinner I explained the Hopi version that Hopi knew about that someday we were going to have Original Native Peoples, nations coming together with our system based on our spiritual ways, spiritual patterns. So then, we will be the deciding factor, because we know what's coming in the future and we don't neglect some of this nature's forces and powers.

I saw a picture of a circle with a cross in the middle, with 4 dots in the center. I said that's what it's going to be. So our circles, where ever we are, I require that the peoples from the East speak first, then the North, West and then South. Then a representative from above and down below. In that circle that's how we keep this form of things the old people left, natural movements. That's why we have the Swastika a symbol, one forwards - one backwards. There are other meanings, other reasons. So someday, we'll have that. Hopi know that.

A man from Peru jumped up and says, "My God, we've been thinking about forming this original native peoples United Nations, but we don't know how. It's right here. Let's draw a Circle with a cross inside. Then he says, people from the East stand on this side. North here, West here, and South here. We've already formed this United Nations of Native Peoples and this is what we're going to work towards from now on.

I think this is what .they're talking about, trying to carry this out. We need to have people who actually represent different areas, coming together that know this knowledge. They were happy to learn that Hopi knew this.

This Is The Last Message That I Must Deliver

That's why this is the last message that I must 'deliver. The Canadian, US. and UN, that's the end of it. We give them 4 years to do something. If they don't do it, then we're going to start doing it.

Janet - And everything's like you said too! Look as the big storms hitting the SE. El Nino hitting this way. We even have big Marlin fish up in the NW, they belong in the south. In our own area, our fish are dying because the water is too hot - too warm. And a lot of sicknesses that they don't know what's wrong.

I always tell my children when we gather every Sunday to take sweats, that everything is what Thomas and the Hopi have been telling us all along. That the foods are going to' be poisoned. Now even the lettuce and fruit juices have poison - E Coli that are killing our children. So everything is just like you've always told us is coming true. Really fast.

So I was wondering - 1992, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97. Especially this last year, 1997 is when it started. Bigger earthquakes, bigger winds, volcanoes, storms, floods, fire, sickness. Just like you said because 4 years have past and they didn't do anything.

Nature Is Going To Start Speaking Out

Thomas - In 1997, is when nature's going to act up more and more. Change is coming quickly, seasons different. That's what old people talk about that there might be a big area of land sinking for some reason or some area going to rise up. Terrific cyclone,. rainstorms. Nature is going to start speaking out. Old people mention that I call on the 4 directions when I speak to UN and I just call on them to come and help us I was surprised that the storm came that night. Terrible rain storm, lightening, everything came. That's exactly what's going to happen.

We Hope By Having Ceremonies, We Might Stop That

We hope by having ceremonies, we might stop that. So that's the reason why the next morning I went through a Circle and prayers to call on forces to stop the rain and wind. And it stopped. They were all glad. Those leaders from the South tell me they were glad I had courage to form this Circle. We know the power, we deal with it, we just don't have the courage. So they all shook my hand, saying now we can go back and stop it like this.

That's Why This Meeting In The 4 Corners Is Important

So, those are some of the things the old people say and it happened. From 1997 on, I'm expecting nature's going to be very, very strong. That's why this meeting in the 4 corners with leaders and friends who are supposed to know is important. But some of them (indigenous peoples) have lost this knowledge. If we come back, maybe we can start, at least to have some kind of ceremony to keep nature in balance.

That's what I told people about the Seminole people, state people wanted to move them into new houses they're going to build. Wanting them to let go of their old, simple homes but the Seminole people don't want to. If they don't move, their simple homes may be destroyed.

I told government people that's the worst thing the government can want to do. We need to keep these simple homes and continue the ceremonies to keep this nature in balance. That's why they don't have too much tornado. If this lifestyle is destroyed, no one's going to know how to do it. Terrible tornadoes are going to come in through here and blow away all the houses. We don't want that to happen.

I Think It's Coming To That Because the White people Don't Understand This

I think it's coming to that because the white people don't understand this. They think they can have power but they can't. They're going to make a bad mistake, try to change or follow their own dictations. Nature's not going to move that way. There's going to be a terrible earthquake from that one, tornadoes, storms maybe.

Someday We're Going To Have To Wear Gloves To Plant Our Corn

Like the old man up here, 100 yrs old now that I saw last week said, "I just planted my corn. I used to plant it about the first part of April, sweet corn. The ground is still cold yet. The old people used to say, "Someday we're going to wear gloves to plant our corn." Maybe we're in that time now - it's cold when it's time to plant corn.

Janet - So you think tat the most important thing there is to work for is this 4 directions meeting someplace the 4 corners area?

Thomas - 'We might be able to, get the people from New Mexico, from the Pueblos who know of this too. Jose Lucero's the only one to bring this out. There used to be an old uncle that used to come and bring this out but he passed on about 3 years ago. So he might want to get together, write me a letter or call. Some people from the south might come up here to have a meeting in the 4 corners area, whether in spring or summer.

Janet - I read about this in Akwesasne Notes, that you were calling for a meeting of the people to come together, but in Denver in August. But I never heard more about it.

Thomas - That ones more about the western hemisphere center.

Janet - So who was going to help on that?

Thomas - One before that, they think they'll have one in the 4 corners area.

Janet - I think things are getting pretty bad now in Indian country. All the gambling, young people getting killed - shot, committing suicide. Really bad!

They Know Some Of The Ceremonies That Are To Be Performed At That Time

Thomas - Each direction has something very important to play throughout this time. East, North, West, South. They know it. They know they're supposed to be the ones to come together. They know some of the ceremonies that are to be performed at that time; then a lot of things will happen.

Singing, Dancing, Fasting - Has A lot To Do To Keep Things In Balance

When I was taken over to that mound, east of Mississippi River, [a mound - to start standing up that 4 comers area]. I told the white lady when we got up on the trail and I went over to the east to offer a prayer - a white butterfly follow me to the north. When I went to the north and I turned around, a black butterfly followed me around. When I offered a prayer to the west, there like rain clouds over there, to the south, two eagles - a small and a big one were flying over that area. So I went back to that lady and we started to go down. When we were going down, we came to a bush and stopped) again. She kept looking at me like this and she wanted to say something but she didn't. I say, "What is it?" She said, "Do you hear somebody coming with us?" "Yeah, I know - our spiritual leaders here and there are coming with us - a lot of them." She heard their footsteps, like a lot of them following us and she heard them so she mentioned it. When we got to the bottom, we found lots of people have been digging around there, finding all kind of drawings, from different areas. I guess that's where they used to meet a long time ago.

Old people say, "When things happen like that, you must get all 4 directions to come back together - to keep nature in balance." That's why we have these ceremonies, singing, dancing, fasting. There is a lot to do to keep things in balance.

The old man in Santa Barbara used to tell a little of it, but I think he knew more - he's passed on now. People still speak a lot of Hopi words there. We call on nature and something happens.

So Many Things Happen During Those Spiritual Circles

I had a court battle for a fellow in State of Washington. We won that. They wanted him to go to another country, we wanted him to stay right here. Anyway, after that court battle, we went down below looking for a place to go to the ocean. It was getting dark and it was really raining. Janet and others came saying, "How can we build a fire with this rain coming down?" I told some of the young fellows to gather dry branches, leaves or wood under logs. And not very far from tide designate this as the place for the fire. It was still raining hard. Told them to build the fire - and when they started to light the matches - it was just like somebody turned the water off. It stopped raining, right now. So we had a ceremony there that evening. (Mike McCloud - Edith's boy).

So many things happened during those Spiritual Circles.

We've Got To Have Leadership To Come Together in 4 Corners Area

Janet - So what would you tell the people in my area if you came up there? What would you tell them to do?

Thomas - We need to inform anybody who knows, maybe younger generation or older ones, that remember some of the ancient knowledge, why they went to where they are and what we're supposed to do. Then maybe we can stress the need for representatives to go to 4 corners area or other places later. Then we can help out. We've got to have leadership to come together in 4 corners area and then to form UN of Native people.

Janet- So that's the most important thing to work on to try to stop these forces of nature.


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